Pete Allen Podcast
Summary
Pete Allen is the managing partner at Birch Advisors, which supports robotics and supply chain consulting companies with go-to-market strategies. He has spent 30 years in commercial leadership roles and has worked with companies such as Berkshire Gray, Agility Robotics, and Vecna Robotics. He discusses the different types of robotic solutions available, such as Amrs, asset robots, humanoid robots, and robotic picking. He also talks about the challenges faced by robotics companies, including gaining traction in the industry and getting companies to In this episode of Supply Chain is Boring, the host, Chris Benson, interviews Pete Harris, an expert in robotics and automation in the supply chain industry. They discuss the current state of the industry, the challenges and opportunities facing warehouse managers, and the role of technology in improving operations. Pete shares his insights on the benefits of integrating robotics and automation into supply chain workflows, such as increased efficiency, cost savings, and reduced labor turnover. He also addresses common concerns and misconceptions about robotics When it comes to robotics and automation, team leaders in operations need to effectively manage change by educating and explaining how these technologies will benefit their teams. In terms of setting up a warehouse for the future, the approach will vary based on if it's a greenfield (a new warehouse) or a brownfield (an existing warehouse). Misconceptions about robotics include the perception that humanoid robots are ready for widespread use, when in reality they are still in the proof-of-concept stage. The ideal Pete loves robots and thinks they're pretty cool. He works as a consultant for companies trying to integrate robotics into their operations, and he has lots of advice for people who want to do that successfully. He thinks that there are a lot of factors that go into determining if robotics will be a good fit for a company, including the type of robot and the shift schedule. He emphasizes the importance of ROI and increasing throughput, but also considers other benefits like safety and employee satisfaction. Senior ops : In this episode of The Warehouse Podcast, host Kevin Lawton interviews Pete Allen, the Director of Marketing at Berkshire Advisors. Pete discusses how he got into the world of logistics and warehousing, and how he got involved in the robotics industry. Pete also shares his insights on the use of robotics in warehouses, and how it can help streamline processes and solve difficult problems. Kevin and Pete also discuss the future of humanoid robotics in warehouses and whether it will take over or simply complement human labor. Check
Transcription
Ben Hopkins
[00.00.07]
Hey everyone, thanks for tuning in to another episode at the Warehouse Underground podcast, Real Talk or Warehouse DC and FC professionals of all levels around the globe. I'm Ben, I'll be your host today. And joining me on the show is Pete Allen. He is the managing partner at Burch Advisors, supporting robotics and supply chain consulting companies with go to market strategy and execution. Now, P has been in the industry for more than a minute. He has done a lot of different things and many different companies seek him out to be an advisor. So don't get too much into that. And Pete will tell you a little bit more about that in the show, but I am interested to talk with him about robotics now as they apply to the supply chain warehouse distribution industry, because there's a lot of flash out there when it comes to robotics, but there's also a lot of substance out there too. But sometimes the trick is separating the two what's flash and what's substance. And P is an excellent guess to talk about that today. So I'm really excited to have him on the show, to get his perspective on robotics and how they can benefit you in the warehouse and distribution space. So with that, I'll bring him on the stage right now. Pete, sir. Good morning. Thank you very much for joining the Warehouse Underground podcast. How are you today, man?
Pete Allen
[00.01.34]
Man, I am doing great. Thanks for having me here on on a Saturday morning. Uh, looking forward to having this conversation today.
Ben Hopkins
[00.01.41]
Yep. Yep. I want people to know we record this podcast at all times during the week, Saturday at night, you name it. That's how dedicated the guests are to passing along good information to the folks out there. So I, I appreciate that, Pete. So I introduced you a little bit at the beginning of the show. And I mean that, that, that just barely scratches the surface of what you've done in the industry and what you're doing now. So can you just explain to the audience a little bit about your background and what your journey been like to where you are today in the industry?
Pete Allen
[00.02.17]
Yeah, sure. So I have spent probably the last 30 years in some kind of commercial leadership role, uh, originally in the world of telematics, and that became this commoditized industry. It was got boring. And I started watching robotics in warehouse and thinking, boy, that would be really cool to get into. And I was lucky enough to land one of the general manager VP roles at Berkshire Gray when they were coming out of stealth and launching go to market right before the pandemic. So I ran a grocery business unit there. We were looking at things like robotics rotation, robotic kicking solutions and and what it really helped me do was kind of learn the industry and start finding out, well, hey, there's other things out here like AMS and, and and ACS and all these kind of things. So I spent about four years there in those roles. And I also started to build out partnership ecosystems that helped me to learn about these other companies. I then went into the cool world of humanoid robots, and I joined Agility Robotics to help them as head of strategic partnerships. Um, and then I left there and started my own company, uh, Birch Advisors. And, uh, for about the last two and a half years, I've been a board advisor for Jacoby Robotics. So I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about today. Um, recently became a board advisor for Retail Motion, which is a robotics company for store replenishment in the grocery store. Which is pretty interesting. Um, and I work with Vecna Robotics to help them with. Um, partnership ecosystems. And I work with the Breckland Group, who I think you had Chris and Lee on your show recently, helping them with go to market, uh, execution and strategy as well. So I know a lot about the world of robotics and warehousing, and I'm looking forward to this conversation today.
Ben Hopkins
[00.04.05]
Yeah, I mean, robotics, like I say, and we've talked about this before, before the show, it's everywhere. If you go to a trade show, a pro mat, or a moto X robots or maybe not much as much now as it used to be, there was a time where it was just absolutely fanatical in there with with robots. So what's your opinion on it? I mean, you, you are an expert in this. So what are your thoughts on, in general, high level robotic solutions in the supply chain space for warehouses today? Because everybody has their own opinion on it now. Where they form that opinion is anybody's guess. But what do you think on it? I
Pete Allen
[00.04.45]
mean, I think there's all kinds of different robots that are designed for different use cases within a warehouse. Right? So I think if I'm an operator in a warehouse, right. I've got to think about what challenges do I really have, what am I trying to solve for, and then what type of robots are really going to help me in that area. But if I look at kind of like what's working out there today, right? We look at the area of armors as a starting point. You know, 8 to 10 years ago, armors were the novel new concept that people were like, oh, that's cool. But, you know, as early adopters were getting into it and it wasn't scaling. Here we are, eight, ten years later. It's scaling, right? People are using armors for like, locusts, right? They use locusts for each picking. And locust has is probably the leader in that, um, you know, swarming to optimize the, the ups of each picking. Um, we have armors doing pallet movements. You know, the companies like Beckman will have an autonomous forklift for autonomous college, Jack or Tiger to do movements back and forth in a warehouse. Those type of things are scaling. And it's and they're really useful. They're kind of low cost, easy entry, no infrastructure change. Right. So for those operators there are like risk averse like, oh my God, I don't want to stop my whole business and cut out this part of my warehouse to put in something. Right. That's an easy starting point is Amr. And they work right. And they're designed for certain things. Um, we'll talk about case flow and case picking in the aisle, but that's another one that we can get into. But I think those are things I think about. And then I start to think about, okay, I'm maybe a little more sophisticated. Maybe my volumes are higher. Maybe I start thinking about assets, right? Things like auto store and exit tech. Those companies are scaling like crazy now, you know, ten years ago they were early adopting things. And then we get into things like humanoids, like it's the biggest hype out there.
Ben Hopkins
[00.06.47]
Ready? Don't work
Pete Allen
[00.06.48]
yet. Not ready to scale. So you know, those are I started thinking about all of those type of solutions. And I think also think about robotic picking, right. And robotic politicizing and depolarizing, again, kind of easy solutions that are point solutions that you can adopt into your organization without having to rip apart the infrastructure. So so I think again, part of this is like who's the end customer? What are they looking to solve? Just because it's a robot doesn't mean it's going to work. It's like, does it fit your use case, doesn't solve your use case. And can you, can you people adapt to it and work with it to help you make sure you're getting your throughput? Those are the types of things to think about.
Ben Hopkins
[00.07.29]
It reminds me of my wife and I. About six years ago, we started installing a home gym in our basement, and it reminds me of our journey of the home gym. Like we started out and we were like, we don't need all this. We just need a bench press, some free weights, some dumbbells. And then as we got more and more comfortable with it, we just started adding more and more complexity onto the onto the home gym. But I think if we would have jumped right into the to the big stuff right away, I'm not sure we would have really got the benefit of that. We kind of had to build up to that. So that that journey reminds me of, uh, of that. I just finished my workout this morning. That's why I kind of bring that up, because I just gave my my home gym, uh, a lot like you do. So. Well, let me ask this question. Let me talk about kind of different challenges that robotics companies face in the industry. And I really see it as two different paths. I think there's the one challenge, which is kind of tactical. What tactical problems are we solving? What tactical problems does the operator in the warehouse face at the level that that they're at, whatever that is, whatever function they're doing on the warehouse floor? Pick one. There are many, but there's also I see it as maybe more strategic level problems, too, that a robotics company might face off. How do I gain traction in the industry? Right? Like how do I educate people on my solution? And then another level beyond that, how do I get like them to adopt it and them to embrace it as a solution? So kind of a long two part question here, but what do you think are some of those unique challenges on on all those different levels that that. Yeah.
Pete Allen
[00.09.14]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can weave this in on kind of two of the companies I work with, too. I think a little bit, if you think about the world's problems we're trying to solve. Right. I think about some of the automation I've already mentioned is working at scaling and people are are adopting it. But there are areas where we haven't solved for. Right. So if I think about, um, I'll level case picking to pallet. Right. The idea of your serpentine being through the aisles with a pallet jack or a forklift and a pallet and the operator is, is building the pallet as they go. If we go around most warehouses today, that's still manual, right? Yeah. And there's a reason for that. Um, you either have huge volumes like a Walmart or, you know, one of the large grocery chains or what have you, and you've installed a symbolic or a which Ron and you're spending $150 million, right? So that's like the high end, super big infrastructure. Most companies avoid that because they don't have the volume and expenses there, and the ROI doesn't work for them, right? So there's really not a lot of in-between unless you say, okay, I'm going to go for, uh, an assess like a out of store or an XO tech, and I'm going to spend 10 to $50 million, and I've got to shut down part of my building. And again, I've got some expense there. The ROI is are probably better than the other one, but hey, if I could do, I'll stick with no infrastructure change. I don't stop my business, and I can do it for low cost by putting in an Amr. It works kind of like Locust does for each banking right? And it orchestrates people and bots together to increase up wages. Well, then I've got a low cost entry level solution that's solving a massive problem because again, most of this is manual today and it's hard to find people. I can also like look at like what Jacoby does like. People for a long time have tried to do mix case politics and automate that. And how is it automated today? Well, I'll go back to the which runs in the symbolics of the world. Right? I jeunesses I sequencer I build the Tetris up in the in the buffering of the assays. I sequenced it out to a dumb robot to build it. What if I could get rid of sequencing and a robot at the end of line? That was smart enough and intelligent enough to do the Tetris there, regardless of randomness or stock friendly or store friendly? Well, now I've solved the two really hard problems in warehousing. I've gotten rid of that giant answers. Again, I've lowered the cost of the total solution. The ROI is are better. Like, those are some really interesting challenges in the industry that haven't really been solved with robotic automation that now are being solved. Which leads to the second part of your question, right? Which is how do you get that message out there? Right. Yeah. Well, one, you've got skeptics out there like, wait a minute. People have been trying to solve this for years. I mean, the the mixed case polarizing one's been called the Holy Grail. If you could ever solve it, you've solved the Holy Grail. Well, it's been solved now, but getting people to believe it's solved is you've got to get deployments out there. You've got to, you know, go get partners. Like, you know, Fortner, who's working with Jacoby. Uh, to help spread the word that, hey, this is available. This does work. And and that's that's the challenge in the early days of a of a startup. And that's kind of what I helped them with.
Ben Hopkins
[00.12.39]
Yeah. And I think so sometimes you will hear this common trope where people say it's very difficult to get adoption from a warehouse manager or an obsolete because there's such a skeptic about it. They don't ever want to play ball, they don't ever want to do all these things. And I'm and I get all that to a certain level. But that's because they know things about their operation that you might not know on the other side of the robotic. Right, because they've been in it for 15 years or 20 years or whatever they've done. So they in their head, they're thinking about all these contingencies, all these unique things that happen on their floor, that they're just skeptical that a robot can do and solve for all of them, like you mentioned one right there. But if you are able to come up with a solution for them and it's going to make their life easier and it's going to make the performance of their operation better, they begin to adopt that very fast, because that's a stressful world that they live in and operate. And if there is something that's going to make it better for them and there's proof there, then they'll they'll be they'll be very quick to adopt it. So I think that's part of the the challenge right there is, is, is just it's not that they're necessarily not wanting to adopt, it's just that they've been told that things are going to be a great solution for them in the past, that that then didn't work out because it couldn't handle contingency X, Y or Z. And so now that's just kind of how they came up. But if you are solving that and that, you know, the future is looking very good for you if you can do that, I think.
Pete Allen
[00.14.12]
Yeah. And that's the interesting thing, right. Because you you're correct. I mean, all operations managers by nature, I shouldn't say all, but most rightfully so, are skeptics of robotics. Right. Until they find out, hey, you know, they look at locusts or auto store and they see, oh my God, that scaling that is working. My friends who are using it are getting, you know, two x throughput than they got before. And they're people. This is always an important part. There people have accepted the change management and have adapted to the new processes. Right. Because the process is going to change when you put in a robot. And if your people don't follow the new process, the robot's not going to solve the problem then, right? You got to follow the process that's going to be happening. So I think those are some, some really interesting things that that I think about when we try to work with customers is give them proof points, give them validation. You know, in the case of that, they've got they're working with geodes and they're starting to roll out at multiple sites. Uh, DHL just came out with an announcement that they're working with them. Right. So there's a couple of good proof points already or a company that's been around for a long time, but a new solution. It's only been out for about a year and a half. Uh, so those are the kind of things that we definitely work within customers to help. I think, you know, having partners from a Jacobian perspective like Fortnite and Peek and integrated helps customers go, okay. Those guys invented this solution. They know it works. That's another kind of helpful point to the industry.
Ben Hopkins
[00.15.40]
Yeah. And then and when that shift happens, a change happens in that ops manager. And now all of a sudden the pressure they start to feel the pressure. Because if they're holding back on something because they don't they have a personal bias towards it or they don't like it or whatever. But there's proof, yeah, out there, undeniable proof from other operations and other companies that the CFO knows about or the CEO knows about, because they're networked in with other people. Now, you better get on board with that, because now you're the one that's holding back the progress, and you don't want to be in that position either as an Ops leader out there. So I think but all of it comes down to Pete, and that is if if the system is working, if the if the numbers are there and the metrics are there and the feedback is there, it, it it will get adopted, you know, one way or the other, by hook or by crook, it will happen. So I think, um, you know, I think educating and kind of proven and building a level of comfort is, is important. There. Now let me let me ask this question to you. And we alluded to some of this earlier in the show and that is. It doesn't. Sometimes people think with robotics because I'm unfamiliar with it or I don't know that much about it. It can seem like it has to be an all in, like I have to be either or either I have robotics and automation in my facility, or I have a human labor force that I rely on, but it's it doesn't seem like it's that way. It doesn't necessarily have to be an either or. It can be an and also and it sounds like from talking with you that there's, there's multiple layers that you can kind of grow up into the and also so what do you think about that maybe misconception that it needs to be an either or. But really it seems like it's a it's an and also I mean do you see robots and automation as an end also and I, I think I think that you do but.
Pete Allen
[00.17.37]
Oh I absolutely do. I think we robots are not necessarily taking over people's jobs in a warehouse. Right. They are they're intended to be complementary to people in a warehouse. What they are taking is the jobs that people don't want, right? The jobs that are. The repetitive, heavy lifting. Long day's walking. You know, miles and miles along the warehouse. So I think of that. I'll pick. Right. If I can change the dynamic in that operation. For an operator to be, I'm going to stay in a zone, and I'm just going to walk up and down that zone, and robots are going to meet me, and I'm going to pick in an area and I'm going to walk, you know, 50% less than I do. What? I'm going to be much happier at my job. And guess what? That turnover rate is going to go down. Right. Because now that operator is like, hey, this isn't as grinding and taxing on my body. I can work with this robot. So that's another skill kind of I'm adding to my thing. Um, and you know, what we've seen at companies like geodes is their turnover has gone to zero. Um, yeah. Which is amazing, right? But again, going back to the nature of people being complimentary, I think that's what it's intended to do, is robots are trying to make jobs easier for people in a warehouse. Um, and I see that as a good thing all the time.
Ben Hopkins
[00.18.57]
Yeah. And I, I say this and I've said this on other episodes of the podcast there. I understand the aversion that some people have to robotics because they just, they don't know. Right. They're unfamiliar. I see it on TV and it seems like it's going to come take my job and replace, but it depends on how long of a scale you're measuring that on, because in a way, when forklifts were introduced to the warehousing industry in the way that was a form of automation, it's not a robot, but it did sort of the same thing. It made the life and job easier of the employees working in a warehouse. It was a tool and that's what robotics are. It is a tool. But nobody would say today that, oh, well, you know, forklifts took people's job in the in the warehouse. No, because everybody's accepted it as just sort of the way that it is. And I, I feel like but you know, to the robotics companies out there, forklifts are very reliable. They're very reliable. They work. You don't have to explain to people why they work like they've been fully adopted. And so I think over a long enough time frame, I think probably kind of start to see the same with some of the robotics that's that's out there. The stuff that has substance and is reliable will be adopted and, you know, otherwise maybe not. So, you know, no one ever equates forklifts with robots and automation. But I've always kind of looked at it the same way. I mean, it did sort of the same, uh, the same job. So, um, well, now
Pete Allen
[00.20.22]
these are tools, right? These are tools. And I think, like any tool you are, you're, uh, bringing into your operations. It's change management. You know, at the end of the day, if you're going to put in robots, you should have a change management plan for your team to educate them on. Why are we doing this? What's it mean to them? How is it going to benefit them? Right? That should be step one before you ever deploy a robot in your building.
Ben Hopkins
[00.20.47]
Yeah. And at the end of the day, okay, if they're not being utilized one, somebody is going to come out there and figure out why they're not being utilized because we're saving money. Right. So you have to adopt. And if the answer is they're not being utilized because they're not effective. And the CFO sees that the CFO is going to start to make the decisions on, hey, you know, we can't have these these assets. So I think as long as there's pressure being applied to the to the system, then it's going like the, the industry as a whole I think will benefit. Like we will flush out what is the good equipment, what is working and, and what is not and what's not will be left side just like anything else. I think that gets introduced in uh, in, in the world of ops. So, um, now let me ask this question. So I'm, I'm, I'm a ops leader. I'm, I'm in ops. Right. I do the podcast on the side. Not everybody knows that. But so if you have an ops leader out there and they are thinking about this as they should, because you need to understand what the latest technology is. If it's good, if it's not. So what should they be doing in terms of setting their building up to be a warehouse of the future? What sort of things should they be focusing on? What should they be asking? What should they be researching? And do they do that all in approach, or would you advise them to do a crawl walk, run when it comes to robotics and automation? Yeah,
Pete Allen
[00.22.14]
I think I mean, you can have a lot of different scenarios here, right? I think it depends on the, the, the what this ops leader is looking at. You know, for example, if they were looking at a green field. Right. I would be trying to look at as much automation as I could. Right. Because you're starting from a blank sheet of paper, and obviously your budget is going to impact this. But as much automation as you could put into a greenfield I would try to do. I would try to go almost all then, right, and automate kind of the obvious things, like I would try to automate the case pick and I would try to automate the each picking, politicizing, you know, as much as I could, I would use hammers to move things around a building, and I would try to use less conveyor as, you know, as possible. And I would work with a systems integrator who's done it before, who can really help me optimize all of the automation because like that's the key thing. Right. You're going to want to optimize the throughput. Because if you get a choke points in somewhere in there, you're going to have a problem. Now if I'm a brownfield, I'm taking a very different approach. Right. Because I have constraints in a building already. I may not have space to do a lot of things. I have certain throughput, so I've got a hit. So I'm probably in that scenario crawl, walk, run. Right. Where are my biggest challenges? Right. Is it a throughput challenge that I've got to solve? And, you know, let's just say, for example, uh, my I'm doing mixed case politics, and my people can't keep up with the rate at which the cases are coming. Right? So I've got a bottleneck down there. Okay. Can I find a point solution that can. Automate that process and increase the throughput to the level I need, right? I will be looking for point solutions for that crawl phase. Um, go back to the case handling in the I'll write vector solution. There could be a simple, elegant solution to get them into the door. And this also goes back to I think if that who's that? Operator. What's the risk tolerance right now. What are they thinking about. Are they thinking about its capacity and throughput? Its ROI? How much how how adaptable are my people? Like all of those are things I think an operator leader operations leader needs to think about. Um, but I try to do the crawl in a brownfield, uh, and, and, you know, take on as big a chunk as you can. Be thoughtful about it. Really think about where the where are the problems, where are you finding problems today? And you're in a warehouse now. You you run on every, every day of the week, right? I mean, where do you see the biggest challenges in your warehouse?
Ben Hopkins
[00.24.55]
Yeah, I think I think it just it really depends. I mean, and and it can change according to the season. You know, some facilities have a big season and then it's all about volume, volume volume. Right. And in, in the off season it's about efficiency efficiency efficiency and and and it just varies. You know it just varies what what the focus on. So I think depending on where you go and who you ask and the season that they're in, it's going to be uh, going to be different, different challenges for each one of
Pete Allen
[00.25.25]
those. Yeah, I would agree with that.
Ben Hopkins
[00.25.27]
Yeah. Now let me ask this question to you because you're, you're you're heavy in the world of robotics and like, uh, like, like sometimes people have some misconceptions like. I'm from Georgia. I live in Georgia. I had friends in the Air Force that were from all different parts of the company, or from in the country to come see me in Georgia. Like, where's the banjos at, man? I'm like, what? I don't know what you're talking about. You know what I mean? So there's just weird, like, misconceptions that sometimes people have about something that they don't know or they're not familiar with. So in the robotics world, what are some misconceptions that you've seen that people not from that industry have about the world of, uh, of robotics?
Pete Allen
[00.26.09]
Well, I mean, I'll start with the biggest type one right now that we all see pretty much every day in our in our LinkedIn feeds. And that's humanoid robotics, right? I think most people see all of these humanoids on their their feeds and they're like, oh my God, it's here. Look at it's working. And look at all the money. I mean, the billions and billions of dollars that's being invested into these companies. You would think these companies are making, you know, money hand over fist, right? And their revenue is is skyrocketing. None of that is true. Like it's all hype right now. Um, the industry itself is and this comes from the leaders of the companies. Like if you watch Agility Robotics and you watch, uh, Boston Dynamics, those are companies that are. Telling it straight, right? They're telling the industry, hey, we're doing proof of concepts for the next three years, and we're. And that's all we're doing. We're not scaling. Um, and the reason we're doing it is we have to collect real world data that from the robot actually in a warehouse doing or an automotive manufacturing doing real work. And the reason they're telling you that is because they need the real data to train their algorithms to improve the ability of the robot. And there's no internet of robotic data for a humanoid. If you think about autonomous cars, eight years ago, autonomous cars needed all that data. Here they are eight years now, and they've got collected millions and millions and billions and trillions of terabytes of data about driving a vehicle. And they're pretty good now at being able to drive by themselves. The robot, the human humanoid robot has none of that. So that's what they're going to be doing. So they're 3 to 5 years from scaling. Will they be in the warehouse? My bet is yes, they will be. And they'll be complementary to other robots. They'll be complementary to Amr. So be complementary to Acer's. Uh, they will be able to, over time, become multifunctional. Today. They're single function. They can do the training to do one thing at a time, and that's all they can do. Over time, they'll become multifunctional. You can move them around a warehouse like you do people. You do different things, but that's years down the road. So the misconception is they're here now, they're ready now they're not and they're not.
Ben Hopkins
[00.28.37]
Yeah. I mean, you go to a trade show and you would walk out of there thinking that they rule the day. They're everywhere. It's the same thing. Like if you go to a car show, you see the latest and greatest, the future tech in there, all these amazing cars. But then when you drive down the road, like, most of what you see is just cars, like just regular Nissan Maxima, you know, the Chevy Malibu, right? I'm not getting paid by Chevy or Nissan by the way. So no plug. But like that's what you see when you just people just drive old reliable cars. But you coming out of the show, you would think, oh my gosh, everything. And I think that's a little bit like how warehouses and distribution centers are around the country. Yes, there are some that are on the far end of the bell curve that have the latest and greatest in everything but the majority of what's out there. Not that yet, is it? Is it coming? Is it on the horizon? Sure. I think it probably is, but it's not nearly that that level of what people would think if they are unfamiliar and they come out of the the trade show, that's just that's just not the reality of of facilities across the country, I don't think.
Pete Allen
[00.29.48]
Yeah. No, I would totally agree with you on that comment. Absolutely.
Ben Hopkins
[00.29.53]
Yeah. So. All right. Let me ask this question because, um, you know, one of the things is if you if you're an ops leader and you're working in your facility and you think, oh, man, we would be an ideal candidate for integrating with some type of robotics and automation. Um, but other times people would think that about their operation. But in the reality when somebody comes in to look at it, they would say, no, this is not a good fit for you based on your facility that you operate or the type of product mix that you have or order mix. So for you, who is that person out there that is the ideal type of operation or customer to get the most gains, I guess, if you will, from robotics and operation. I mean, where's that? Where's that sweet spot out there?
Pete Allen
[00.30.43]
I think it depends. Again, going back to the robotics, right. And what they're trying to do. But as a starting point, I think almost all robotics need a two shift operation to get an ROI. Now it's not always the case. There are some cases where a single shift might just have enough volume, enough people that the ROI would still work, but that's kind of a starting point. I think it also goes back to what type of robot so you're trying to adopt. Is it the case picking like Vecna? Is that end of line, uh, mixed case prototyping like Jacoby? Is it am rs like those that all goes into the equation. I'll spin it around a little bit though, and say what I like and what I talk to. My my companies that I consult with about is, hey, early on when you're talking to a customer about solving their problem, the first thing we want to do is find out is this feasible? Is the solution I'm trying to sell to this ops leader. Is it feasible? Is it going to work in their building? And secondly, is it going to provide a real ROI in, say, less than three years? If that's not, tell them right up front like, hey, you don't have enough volume to support this product, right? Your level of case picking is below a certain level. You're not going to get an impact, right? Or hey, we've done the study and hey, you are going to see your UPF go from 125 to 250. If you implement our solution and you're going to get a reduction in labor of 50% and therefore your your ROI looks like two years. Great. Like if Mr. Ops manager. He wants to know either scenario as fast as possible. Because you're an Ops, you don't want to spend a ton of time evaluating this technology just to find out six months down the road that you're trying to go for approval, that it's not going to work for you. And the ROI stinks. Yeah, right. So I try to educate our customers and our my, my clients in the case of Jacoby and Vecna, do that fast, right? Help the help the customer understand feasibility and value proposition as early as possible.
Ben Hopkins
[00.32.56]
Yeah. And sometimes, uh, everybody wants to know about the return on investment in a financial term. And that is, number one. That always rules the day. Anybody who works out there in ops will know that. That's always a discussion that's had. But there are many other positive impacts that I think can come from something like this. You know, higher service level agreement achieve to the customer. You know, your your order, your on time orders go up, your safety incidents go down, your worker's comp go down because you, you know, you don't have as much wear and tear on the bodies. Your your attrition goes down because nobody wants to leave because they like working with the robots versus facility down the road that doesn't have them. All those sort of things really. If you're having an honest discussion, they all should be factored in to the equation too. But it's much harder to do that to the untrained eye, because it's just not a nice clear line on the on the PNL that,
Pete Allen
[00.33.53]
yeah, somebody's looking at all everything just says 100%. Right. And we try to factor those things in to the ROI. So when we talk to clients, the other thing I look at, I think is, is critically important to is can it give you a throughput increase? Right. So if you're a brownfield and you're constrained and your your throughput for the building is only x, if you add automation, can it take you up another level and increase the capacity of your building to allow for growth?
Ben Hopkins
[00.34.21]
Yeah, absolutely. And I think all those, all those are a part of it and all those matter a lot to the ops manager, to the GM, to the who, who, whoever you're talking about there. But sometimes and this kind of leads into my question, my next question is a lot of times people in a company, an organization will not have tech backgrounds. So it's very common for a warehouse manager or a distribution center, ops or senior ops to not have any tech background at all other than what they acquired second hand, just kind of work in operations. But the but the problem with that, I think, is that a lot of times they're still required, particularly the, the the higher up they go in their career, they're still required to make decisions, big decisions for the operation that require some sort of technology because they're making decisions about the tech. And if they're being honest, I think a lot of times that makes them feel a little bit insecure about it, because I'm putting myself on the line. I got to make this decision about all this tech and whether or not we invest in this, but I'm not I'm not comfortable about that because I don't have this background. So what is a good exploratory? Process look like? Well, I mean, what is a good exploratory phase look like for a senior ops leader out there in distribution to to learn about the tech and automation and robotics, even though maybe they're not familiar with that and they don't speak that language. But but they're you know, you know, what is on the line if it doesn't work in the long run. Yeah. I mean,
Pete Allen
[00.35.56]
I think you know this as ops leaders, right? If you're a good leader in anything, whether it's ops or whatever, you're a good leader. You're you have a good team, right? You're relying on your team to help make decisions. Right. And hopefully on your team, you've got some people that are tech savvy, right? You've got your IT department who is going to probably play a role in some of this. So that's part of this journey. But I think there's a lot of different, uh, areas that these ops leaders can go, right. One example is you can go to systems integrators, right. And you can if you. Well, I'd start with what's the use case I'm trying to solve for right is in brownfield is a greenfield. Is it a point solution. Is it multi multi solutions. In my building that I'm trying to solve for I would go seek out 2 or 3 systems integrators, ask them to come in and assess my operations and, you know help me figure out what's the right tech to solve the problems. Is it Amr, is it SRS? Is it end of line policy and is it case picking. Right. All these are the options. But systems integrators out there and there's a lot of good ones can can really help in this areas in these areas. Um and if I'm thinking about robotics I start thinking about who are some that are progressive on the robotics front, like Zion Solutions comes to mind to say, you know, a unique integrator that's very progressive on robotics could help a lot of companies think through different options, but they should talk to multiples and get some good, good understanding for it obviously comes to mind for me as well. Um, another avenue that these ops leaders can think about is, uh, supply chain, uh, consultants, you know, like Chris family who you had on the show from Brooklyn Group. Um, you know, Chris and his team are people like that can help companies assess where are your biggest problems? Right. They could do this holistic analysis of the building, really help that leader figure out. Oh, you thought it was over in each picking. Oh it's not it's over here in your slotting here and case picking. And if you did this and you did this and you put this type of technology right, they could help them think through that. Um, so I think that's the starting point is figure out who can help you solve the real problems of your building. And then now on the tech side, it comes down to, okay, you've gotten different proposals from these integrators. Some people have recommended auto store, some recommended exo tech. Now you're on the journey of, okay, show me customers who've actually done this in the type of business I'm doing. Right. because now it's not about tech. It's show me it working. Show me it. Taking the throughput from I'll make up numbers, you know, 500 units per hour to a thousand units per hour in this type of a setting and being reliable at the same time. Right. And then okay, now I've got to think about tech wise integration to my WMS. My CS was all that going to pull in. Now my IT team has to come in and really help me understand is can this all be doable? What's the lift? What's the cost? It's going to hit on that side that I wasn't even thinking about compared to the cost of the robots. So there's a lot in there. Um, so I would, you know, tell an ops leader, sit down, develop a plan, get helpful resources from outside as well as inside, put a team together and go solve the problems together. I love
Ben Hopkins
[00.39.26]
that I think that that is fantastic advice for anybody that's out there listening, because at some point in your career, whether you are a junior or like. If you continue to progress in your career, you will be in a position, I think, at some point to start to have to make decisions on this type of thing. When you make that transition from I'm just an operator to now I'm a decision maker, that that changes the whole ballgame. And it's okay, right? It's like, okay, no one expects you to be an expert in robotics automation, but they do expect you to be able to know who to reach out to and how to reach out, and what you should do in order to get to that level. And I think I think that's a fantastic advice for everybody who is out there that is in this realm or will be in this realm in the future. So, Pete, well, so where can people find out more about you? I mean, I follow you on LinkedIn. Other people should follow you on LinkedIn. You you are involved, obviously, in a lot of other companies in the industry and advisory role, but where can people find out more about you and and what do you got cooking up for 2026. The remainder and and beyond?
Pete Allen
[00.40.36]
Yeah. Define me LinkedIn is the easiest place. Um, you can look at my background there and and you know, my specialty is helping robotics companies, particularly startups or companies trying to turn things around on go to market strategy and execution. Um, but it's really not about me. At the end of the day, it's about my clients and trying to help them get better. And, you know, I think a lot about, uh, Jacoby Robotics and Vecna robotics these days, uh, Jacoby has solved the really hard problem of on the fly mixed case politics that hasn't really been solved before. And I think getting the word out there, and we've done that a lot this year, but I want them to scale next year. And I think we have the opportunity to do that. You know, back then, I think it's in the world of case handling fulfillment as the elegant entry level, low risk solution for IHL case picking. And again, we're getting the word out there. So I think part of the coming on the show was to help let the masses out there in your network know, hey, these solutions are out there. They're solving really hard problems that haven't been solved before. So if you're looking for something like that, reach out to me. I'll get you connected with the right people and, um, go from there. And then I really appreciate being on the show. Thanks for having me.
Ben Hopkins
[00.41.53]
Yeah, you got it, man. One last question for you. Sure. Which happens first. Humanoid robotics take over warehouses, or the Red Sox win the World Series three years in a row.
Pete Allen
[00.42.06]
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Uh, I don't see the Red Sox winning the World Series three years in a row since they've never. Well, they probably did way back in, like, the early 20s anyways. Um, humanoids are not going to take over the warehouse anytime soon, and I'll take ever. They will be complimentary in a warehouse and in 3 to 5 years. And that'll be interesting to see.
Ben Hopkins
[00.42.28]
All right. So complete push on this answer. Neither one of these is likely correct likely to occur, but, uh. Right. Well, Pete, well, thank you very much for appearing on the podcast. It was awesome. I love chatting with you. Your wealth of knowledge. That was really cool having you on the show. I'd love to have you back sometimes. I mean, don't don't be a stranger. I'm sure this just scratched the surface on what we could talk about when it comes to robotics, so I really appreciate it. Great guests. Man, I really enjoyed meeting you and thank you again. It's really cool.
Pete Allen
[00.42.57]
Oh, thanks for having me. It was a great conversation. I'd be happy to come to the show again in the future. Yeah,
Ben Hopkins
[00.43.03]
you got it. Take care. Pete, enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Pete Allen
[00.43.06]
Are you too, man? Thanks. Bye bye.
Ben Hopkins
[00.43.10]
All right. Check out Pete Allen today at Burchett Visors. Really cool guy. I mean, really a great asset to learn more about robotics. All these different companies. He advises. Just like a wealth of knowledge. He's a really good person to have in your corner and no, in this industry. So I'm going to reach out to him more in the future as I acquire more knowledge about robotics. So thanks again, Pete. Really enjoyed having you on the show. As the Warehouse Underground goes, please sign up for the community. We have over 340 people that have is signed up for the community at the warehouse underground comm. It's free. Inside there we have message boards, networking information. Share. Connecting with folks. We've done some live shows in the past, some roundtables that you can check out in there, and we have some more coming down the pipe in the future, so check that out. The Warehouse underground.com. Become a member of the community today. Also, please check out the other show that I do. It's called the Tiger Team Show. I do it with my co-host Jordan. It's nothing like the show. It's all about life in warehouses, in DCS and FCS across the globe, but it has a lot of wit and humor and sarcasm draped all over it. It's like talking in the break room with your friends after HR went home. From the day we went home for the day, you know what I'm saying? Like, you will get the vibe of this show right away, so check that show out if you want some lighthearted relief. And as this podcast goes, I will see everybody next week for another episode. Thank you for listening. Bye bye.
