Keith Ingels
Summary
In this interview, Ben chats with Keith Ingles, the director of Lean Business Development at Toyota Material Handling North America. Keith has an extensive background in lean methodology and discusses how it is intertwined with Toyota Material Handling. He also explains how lean thinking can help companies improve their operations and provide a better customer experience. Lastly, Keith touches on the debate over using Japanese terminology in lean methodology and emphasizes the practical application of the principles rather than the language used. Lean methodology is not about the terminology, but rather the concepts behind it. Therefore, it is important to focus on the project and its specific needs, rather than getting caught up in the terms. Lean is also a personal journey that should be adapted to each individual and organization. Rather than focusing on short-term results, the focus should be on developing people and processes in order to achieve sustainable success in the long term. Additionally, keeping morale high is an important indicator of the effectiveness of the process and In this podcast episode, Ben talks with Karen Martin, an operational excellence leader, about how to create a culture of continuous improvement in your warehouse or distribution center. They discuss the importance of morale and engagement of employees, overcoming perfection and defects, and making data actionable. Karen shares tips on how to get your team excited and invested in the process of growth and improvement, as well as how to make the most of the data available to you in order to drive meaningful change in your operation.: Mike Osterling discusses how the use of lean and data can improve operations efficiency. He talks about the importance of having a clear understanding of key metrics and using data to inform decisions, rather than just being data-driven. Osterling also emphasizes the importance of involving employees in the continuous improvement process and empowering leaders to focus on a few people at a time. By engaging and developing employees, not only can efficiency be improved, but morale and retention can also benefit. Hi everyone. My guest today is Keith Ingalls, the Operations Manager at Toyota Material Handling North America. He has over 20 years of experience in various roles within the supply chain industry. In this episode, we discuss lean methodology, the Toyota Production System, and continuous improvement in the warehouse and fulfillment industry. Keith shares his insights and experiences and provides tips for managers and workers to improve operations and work processes in their facilities. He also talks about the importance of involving and empowering employees in these initiatives
Transcription
Speaker 1
[00.00.04]
Hey, what's up everyone? Thanks for tuning in to episode number 35 at the Warehouse Underground podcast, Real Talk or Warehouse DC and FC professionals of all levels around the globe. I'm Ben, the host of the show, and joining me on the show today is Keith Ingles. He's the director of Lean business development at Toyota Material Handling North America. Now everyone knows Toyota material handling, and so I'm excited to talk with him about some of that on the show. But he also has a very, very long and extensive background in lean. He is a lean expert. And as you know, in the world of warehousing and distribution, leans everywhere. It's in every site you go into. Everybody is taking hold of it. So I have a lot of questions for him about lean and his ideas about it and his philosophies. So really great to have someone with such a lean background on the show. I know you guys in the audience are going to like it. And if you don't know about lean, if you haven't heard about lean and you work in this industry, you quickly will be so excited to bring him on this stage right now. Keith, my friend, thank you very much for coming on to The Warehouse Podcast. How are you today, sir?
Speaker 2
[00.01.16]
Man, I'm very well. Thanks for having me. I enjoy your podcast as a listener. I'm looking forward to being a guest. This is a wonderful opportunity, so thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1
[00.01.25]
Yeah, you got it, my friend. Very cool. Samurai sword in the background. I gotta get out. Got that? Get that out there before. Before we start. I like that it looks good. So I'm sure we're gonna get into that with the with the lean and, uh, where lean is from, so.
Speaker 2
[00.01.37]
Yeah, it's it's hacking away the unessential. Right. Sometimes you need a story, right?
Speaker 1
[00.01.43]
Yeah. Absolutely. Cool. So I teased it a little bit in the intro. You are at Toyota Material Handling and you've got a and you've got a lean background, but can you tell the audience just a little bit more about, in your own words, your background and kind of what, what your current role is and what that entails at Toyota Material Handling?
Speaker 2
[00.02.02]
Sure. So we actually have we support two different different distribution networks. We have the Toyota Material Handling Network and the Raymond Network. Both Toyota companies and I have three teams that support continuous improvement in those networks, developing them at the distributor. So my background is actually I learned it in the field customer facing. So the areas of gray are a little different than production. Uh, I've worked in assembly and production as well, and I did have a sensei from Toyota for two years I worked under. So, uh, it's a rare opportunity, but it's, uh, this stuff's wonderful. I love it because we help people see their work differently and find ways to make the work. Take the effort out of the work to make it easier. And, uh, not not faster. That's a common misunderstanding. So even last week, I was working with a group facilitating a project, and we were saying, we're going to make things faster. We're not making things faster. We're taking out unnecessary elements to fewer steps. We're making the steps sequentially more effective, and that takes less time to execute. That's where the efficiency comes from, not faster. And lean means people to participate in the development of how their works execute.
Speaker 1
[00.03.15]
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like take your foot off the break. You know, you don't always need to hit the accelerator. Sometimes more effective to take your foot off the break. So now the getting into it a little bit I mean, the Toyota Production System or TPS as it's referred to is is very famous. Everyone has heard about that in the industry, very, very well known. But how was it intertwined with Toyota material handling? Because I talked about it in the intro. You know, you've got Pit and other equipment, but how is the how's the TPS portion of that link and intertwined with, um, you know, with, with the equipment that most everybody knows, uh, Toyota material handling
Speaker 2
[00.03.55]
uh, from. Sure. Absolutely. Uh, thanks, Ben. That's a great question. And, and TPS actually is from the automotive side, Toyota production systems from the automotive side. On the material handling side, we actually tend to refer to it as Toyota Lean Logistics Management. Not so famous, but it's all the same methodology, and we actually use it to develop our people in the distribution networks to help provide a better customer experience in the distribution areas of the the service parts, rental, things that we provide in our networks to support the equipment. But also we are getting better at the skill of using it to help customers better identify their challenges. A lot of times customers will come to us and say, well, I'd like to buy some forklifts, but, you know, they don't really want to buy a forklift. They want to move more of their product. And through continuous improvement thinking, we can help them frame that, that question and the challenge they're trying to overcome. And then we use the methodology to help them arrive at a solution. It may need some equipment. It may mean the equipment you have we use differently, but we want to always use the best solution with the resources available. Continuous improvement lean is not about throwing resources at a solution, it's about working with the experts of the work. And that's the people that do the work, working with them to help them see their workplace differently and find ways to make improvements. When they see the opportunities people will engage. It's that's that's where I think it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1
[00.05.23]
Yeah, I really like that. Because we'll take the classic, uh, spend in the warehouse or distribution environments. Always labor. So ops manager or senior ops manager is saying, well, I need more people. I need ten extra people or 15 extra people. And usually you'll get asked the question, what do you need, 15 extra people or what do you need them to do? What is your outcome that you are trying to get to? So it sounds like forklifts and equipment and equipment goes the same way. It's not necessarily that they want to buy a forklift. They're not in the forklift business, they're in the fulfillment center business. And that is running lean and efficient and on time. And yeah, forklifts is a is a tool. It's a tool to help them do that. But I think you're right. I think if you really understand everything that they're trying to accomplish, then maybe you can say, you know, here's what you also need or you don't need that you need this solution that you don't know about that we have. Let's talk about more than just a forklift. Let's offer you a real solution I love that. That's awesome.
Speaker 2
[00.06.26]
That's right. Well, you brought up a couple of good key points there. Ben I'd like to talk about. So one thing when you go to the workplace, the availability of people is not as great as it used to be. There's there's fewer people entering the workplace. There's more exiting and retirement. That's that baby boom effect. Right. So we're all feeling that. And and there's so much great solutions out there. Our customers should be able to depend on us to be the material handling experts. That's not what they do. That's not their field of expertise. We support a wide range of customers. I've been in pharmaceutical and meatpacking and distribution and all sorts of production, and we bring the elements of material handling to our customers because they shouldn't have to be the material handling experts. That's our job, where we fulfill their best customer experiences, help them explain to us what they want, and then we can offer suggestions. And if we do it well, if we know that, say they're moving 200 boxes an hour, they need to move 300 boxes an hour. Now we can track the solutions we implement, and we can actually give them a return on investment, an actual ROI on their spend.
Speaker 1
[00.07.35]
Yeah, that's very refreshing. And I'll tell you why. As as a former ops manager in there. Yeah. You do know a little bit about material handling, but you have to know a lot of things about a lot of things. You wear many hats and so it's so fantastic when somebody can step in and take that off your plate. Hey, you don't need to be the expert in this. That's what we do and we can advise you on that. And that is going to be music to the ears of any ops leader because they're like, great. One less thing for me to have to worry about. And I'm going to turf it off to the experts. It's going to be way better than if I did it. I trust them and what they're advising me, and now I can go on and do these other things. So yeah, I think that's, uh, back to the human element that you were talking about, that that's a big that's a big part of it for sure. So let me ask you this question a little bit about, about lean and, and we talked a little about in the intro. Everyone knows lean. It's in all different types of operations manufacturing warehouse distribution. It's everywhere. And the Toyota way is is well known. But I've seen a lot of people now saying that, you know, you know, you've got the Toyota way and it comes with the Japanese language sometimes with the kaizen and the gemba and the muda and all these type of things. So what do you think about that? I mean, you think that people should just. Continue to be purist when it comes to the Toyota way, which you probably were when you were having to to, to learn it. Or do you think there's a case to be made for? No. You know, we really need to modify it. We really need to modify it and put it in a language that people understand, because then they're more likely to take hold of it. What do you think on those two different camps?
Speaker 2
[00.09.19]
So I love that frame framing, Ben. So thank you for giving me the space to be a purist because I am my my instructor is Japanese, not not everyone's cup of tea. It's a very directive style and occasionally get a compliment and it's well earned. But, um, you know, I learned the Japanese bit, but, uh, we people get hung up on the terminology. And the one thing that I learned over the years, and certainly my sensei was all about this, is it's about the practicality of the application. It's not about what we call a concept. It's about the concept. And I've watched people get hung up on the terms and you rattled off some good Japanese terms. Well done, by the way. But
Speaker 1
[00.10.01]
if people get the only thing I know, I know, I'm sure you know more, but they get hung up on the terms and that's that's not the point. You know, if you need to call it something else, call it something else. So we actually a lot of times to the American audience we use I use very few Japanese terms. Now I'm I'm accustomed to them personally,
Speaker 2
[00.10.20]
but they'll get hung up on the pronunciation though, like we do in projects. Sheesh. You know, like, no, no no no. We're doing. Focus on the project.
Speaker 1
[00.10.30]
Yeah, we have nema washy. We're going to reach consensus. No, no, no. Focus on. We all need to reach consensus. So the concepts are what's important. And the other thing, Ben, that you touched on was, um, should it be customizable? So continuous improvement lean. It's a personal journey for the individual and for the organization. So the advice I give customers when they want to start this journey is make it your own. You know, our journey on the Toyota side of the network is different than our journey on the Raymond side of the network. You know, on the Raymond side, we had to adopt it in. It was an innovative company, but they adopted this continuous improvement philosophy in it was it was what I call fertile soil. But the innovation had to be adapted for a different audience, so it wouldn't have worked with all the Japanese. You know, we had some of it, certainly, but you've always got to adapt that to your your customer audience. And from function to function, the methodology doesn't change. You know, we're going to take a process. We're going to look at it. We're going to make it make sense. We're going to focus on safety, quality, uh, cost, delivery and morale. We're going to focus on those metrics.
Speaker 2
[00.11.39]
And we're going to turn out the best customer experience we can by developing our people. So that methodology doesn't change. But we we all have to create that personal experience with what that is for us and where we are on the journey. The most important step for all of us is the step in front of us. And that makes it very personal. But that's okay because we're going to do the best we can with the resources we have, and we're going to make our people confident to to make small changes, not big changes. Change is hard. So we want to give them confidence to make small, consistent changes through the day. That's where we call it kaizen.
Speaker 1
[00.12.13]
Yeah, I love that. And I think like I'm getting ahead of myself because we're going to talk about this later in the show. It's a question I have for you, but people forget sometimes that really in order for any continuous program, continuous improvement program to work, you need the people to adopt it. I mean, they're the ones that that are going to make it go. And so if they're instantly turned off by this, this this seems too fancy for me. I don't like these terms. Then that's just starting off on a bad foot. And it's like a it's shooting yourself in the foot. It's an unforced error. You didn't need to do that. I mean, in the in the warehouse world, you could go to one fulfillment center and they call it stowing, and then you could go to another and they call it put away. You could go to one and they call it picking. And another one calls it order selector. And so even within inside that but they meet the same thing. And so you don't need to get hung up on the actual language if, if, if it's not going to resonate, the goal is to get it to resonate. So um, I love that. And I mean, if yeah, if you're getting a PhD in it or a master's degree, okay. But if you're rolling it out to actual people. I agree with you. I love the fact that you're willing to customize it. And. Speak in a language that resonates with the people. That's a very good thing, and that will keep leen strong for the years thing. Just that little thing alone. So all right, now let me ask you this question because I like as you've been on other podcasts. And so I've heard some of the other things that you've talked about on the, on those. And one of the things that really resonated with me is the a little bit of, hey, there's sometimes this myth that lean methodologies drive results. And, you know, you've said lean methodologies don't necessarily drive results. They drive the inputs. And then those inputs is what can lead to a positive result. Just like sometimes I say that to my son, we're talking about, you know, life. And he's growing up in school and everything. I'm like, you don't get to decide your outcome. You decide what your habits are and whatever the habits are is going to decide your your life outcome. Where do you be? So do you think that for the lean practitioners out there, they face pressure from either who hires them? If they're a consultant or executives? They face pressure because they want it to be like a quick fix, quick results. I hire Arlene. And now I get a quick fix and then they're out type thing. So you think that pressure's there, and if so, how do you how do you push back on that to go? No, we we we build the inputs. We build the inputs. We are not a guarantee that you're going to get this certain result that you want right away. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2
[00.14.59]
I think you should come out on the road with me because it feels like we've worked on projects together. So yeah. So there's absolutely pressure for the for the short term impact. And while continuous improvement delivers that we deliver it best by not focusing on it. And there's most things that we do in continuous improvement. Ben, you could you could arguably say it's common sense. Now the challenge then becomes making it common practice. It's also I've found myself saying a lot. It's very difficult to make work easy. It's quite difficult to make work easy. You got to be methodical and plan it and then execute it well. But when you do that and it's it's something you're going to repeat, that's where you start to get those results. When you get into that process that's working well and you repeat it and repeat it and repeat it, now you're getting that that return on the investment of your effort in your people development, first and foremost, and in your process development and how they execute customer experience. If we focus trying to drive results, we'll tend to do things like focus on the mechanism. Um, I had a had a conversation last week with a group that was talking about doing, um, audits on their people. So we've got to get three audits a year. We're struggling to get the audits. You know, that's the mechanism. And so I ask the hand grenade question, I'll call it. Okay. Here's the hand grenade question. Why are we doing the audits. What's the value out of the audits? Well, we can't get all three. No no no. What's the value out of the audit? If I know the objective, maybe I'll choose four audits. Or maybe I'll choose no auditor in some other mechanism. So if we if we try to rush the process, we'll tend to make mistakes. We'll choose the wrong things or get focused on. We can't drive a result. You know, I use the the analogy if you can't drive a score, if you play any kind of sport, you can't drive the score. You drive what you do on the field, whatever field of play that is, and that yields the score. It's the same in work. We we have to do good work and that yields excited customers repeat business market share. Those are all results. We got to do good work to earn that.
Speaker 1
[00.17.07]
Yeah, and there's a healthy way to do it. I've tell people this analogy, my wife is going to kill me for telling this story. But when we were getting married before we got married, like many wife's like, I'm going to lose 10, I want to lose 10 before my wedding day. And then the dress and the whole thing. Okay. Which. Great. Right? That was the result that she wanted. But she didn't eat, you know, like she just didn't eat by hook or by crook. She was going to make that happen, which she did. Right? She hit the result. But then after the wedding day on a honeymoon, she got sick and wasn't feeling good and wasn't tired. And so, yeah, you you hit the result. But the processes that you did, the inputs that you did to create it was not healthy. It was not sustainable. There was no rhythm there. There was no methodology. There was nothing that was sustainable. And I see many operations run on that today. They want that quick result because there's pressure on them. And so lean can get us that. But that is not that is not a long term healthy way to success. Just like it wouldn't be for your for your body. I think
Speaker 2
[00.18.10]
that's that's right. Well, you bring up a great example then. But also in the workplace it's the same if, if we focus on one of our values, needs to be long term investment in our people long term objectives. If if we focus in the short term, then we don't do things like train and develop people. Yet if we do that in the short term, over time, we're going to yield that return on the investment by getting people excited. And I can tell you that I've seen the most wonderful, um, kaizen come out of people's thought process. What do you ever think about inventive stuff? People are incredible resources. They're inventive, and they're so there's just so much creativity out there we're not even able to tap into. If we just tap a little bit, like what a great customer experience we can can have. As a result, if we involve those experts of the work in doing the work, then the results are fine. If the results are not fine, then our process isn't working. And that's why I mentioned morale is a as a metric. You can't put a gauge on morale, but if morale is good in the workplace, I guarantee the processes are working well and they're getting good results. If the morale is bad, the work's difficult. The process isn't working. There's there's constraints. People are frustrated and they can't execute the work well or else bad. So it's a great indicator. I mean, I know you can't gauge it, but there's ways you can kind of feel it. There's certain things you can see in it. You know, there's metrics like turnover or things like that. You can they're after lagging indicators. But there's wonderful things that morale can help tell us when our process is or is not working. And everything that happens is feedback. You know, if we didn't get the results we want, that's just feedback. Oh, we're having sustainability problems. That's just feedback that means people didn't understand. Or it was too difficult. There's something wrong in the process. You know, our method tells us, well, go find a root cause and see what happens and change something. See if we can make it better.
Speaker 1
[00.20.05]
Yeah, yeah. And you're right. What you say? I've been around to many distribution centers and fulfillment centers, and some of the solutions that some of the people have come up with working in their due to necessity. I look at them and I go, this is how did you think of the like. This is the most creative thing I've ever seen. And then you're like, I want this ingenuity in some type of structure, in some type of a lean program. Like, this is a fantastic a fantastic thing. And and you're right. Like, it's just it's amazing what some people will come up with. So with the right care and feeding and the right seed planted and they're like, they can really come up with some innovative, innovative things that can really bring a lot of value to their operation for
Speaker 2
[00.20.52]
sure. Yes.
Speaker 1
[00.20.54]
And you can definitely feel that you feel the good energy. When a place has a good morale, you can't. Very hard to describe it in words. It's energy and your body is in tune to the energy you feel. The energy you know when it's there. That's
Speaker 2
[00.21.05]
right. Well. And that energy builds. It builds momentum. It builds momentum. People get excited about working. How great is that?
Speaker 1
[00.21.12]
You know. Yeah yeah yeah. So all right so shifting gears a little bit, let me let me ask this question because I, I get so I'm networked in with a lot of ops managers, distribution center managers, warehouse managers. And sometimes they will like like I also do a Tiger team show, which is a comedy show with humor, sarcasm. So people come to me and say, hey, I want you to include this on the Tiger Team show. I don't want to say it because I'm afraid to say it, but I want you to say it on the show. And one of the things they hate is when they get a, a directive from a senior executive or a senior leader that is some version of zero defects is the standard or 100% is is the goal here or you must. Right. So. But the but the pushback they give is. Well, how am I supposed to have continuous improvement programs and a continuous improvement culture in my operation? If you've set the standard at 100% or at zero. So by default I can make no mistakes. So to me, it's always seemed a little bit counterintuitive, where you want continuous improvement, you always want to try to plan, do, check, adjust and all these things. But then you come down and say, no, you can't, you can't have any defects. That's that's the goal. That's the standard. So what do you think about that culture? I mean, people need to be able to make mistakes, right? I mean, there's a limit, but what what what say you? Because I'm sure that you've seen that before in your travels around the country, some banner or some hot sign hanging in a building. So what do you think?
Speaker 2
[00.22.47]
Well, it's it's a great, um, vision to have 100% accuracy. That's a wonderful vision, but also abandoned. You kind of are alluding it to as you discuss through that. Um. It's perfect. Is the enemy of progress. Yeah. And what we want to make is progress. Now, now there are some products notwithstanding. Like, like I helped a customer that actually, um, a few years ago, uh, retreads aircraft tires. I did not know aircraft tires were retreading, but I can tell you that they have 100% zero failure. And I am glad every time an airplane lands. I agree. So so with product, I understand that objective. But in the day to day workplace, um, we want to have a vision of getting better at
Speaker 1
[00.23.32]
what we do, always a little bit and by small, fast increments. If we're creating frustration with our people, guess what? We don't make any improvement. You know, if we're overwhelming them with the objective of, oh, you got to be, you know, nothing less than perfect. You know what? None of us are perfect. What I tell my teams is we never lose. We either win or we learn something. And boy, do we learn a lot. And so, yeah, we got to give permission to people to not get it right the first time. Especially been another piece of your question that that in continuous improvement, sometimes we're doing things we've never done before. Like I'm on that on some AI projects. How do we use AI to better instruct and create standards for our people? Ben I have no idea. But we're learning. We're learning. So. So this is new skills and new knowledge. If we think we're going to get that right out of the gate, we're kidding ourselves. We're going to take small steps. We're going to learn, we're going to adjust. It's to plan, do, check, adjust, cycle, plan, do check, act. I like adjust, but pdCA cycle. You know that we're going to run that cycle over and over and we're going to learn. And so we've got to be a little forgiving to ourselves to to not get it right. But it's okay to hold ourselves accountable to that. We've got to learn as a result of what happened and come back better.
Speaker 2
[00.24.50]
Yeah. We need to hold ourselves accountable, too.
Speaker 1
[00.24.52]
Yeah, and that's a realistic goal. I mean, that's a rallying cry, a cry. I think people can get behind. But whenever someone says, well, you need to have 100% or zero of defects, they go, oh yeah, well, how many times do you hit backspace on your keyboard every day? You know how to type, right? You know how to spell. You've been spelling since you were five years old. Why are you hitting backspace? Because it's just because you make mistakes, right? It's like human nature. So it's a little bit of a political sign and a little bit of a thing that I think is not is not always helpful, but it's just not realistic. Right. It feels good to say it, but what's realistic and what's more challenging is exactly what you're talking about, which is learn, get better, improve, modify, you know, and, and and those things will change over time. So I want to bring that up because I know that, you know, sometimes people say, oh, you know, we brought a lean consultant in and we want to have zero defects after that. I'm like, that's not I'm not sure that that's really, really a thing or even really realistic, but it is what it is. You people will still put them up and still be. They will still be those signs in some plant or some warehouse somewhere. So that's right out
Speaker 2
[00.25.58]
there. Well, but you bring up another good point then, is if we disengage our people, we've in essence, in my experience, we've lost the battle. That's where that creativity comes from. The people in front of the work are going to see the opportunities to improve it before anybody else, because they know how it's been executed, and they know what's stopping them from executing it well. So if we don't have their engagement and by setting unrealistic objectives, we are going to disengage them. Now sustainability is an issue now. Now we have all these other problems. So, um, you're a lot of your listeners are probably familiar with five s. Oh yes. Five s process. So in Japan, in Toyota there are only four S's. They don't have a sense of sustain because Toyota culture as well. Of course we sustain it. If it makes sense, of course we sustain it. They had to add the s for the rest of the world. That's interesting. So I
Speaker 1
[00.26.50]
did not know that. That's interesting.
Speaker 2
[00.26.52]
Yeah. So it's sustainability. If we're not sustaining then we haven't engaged our people. Or you're asked to walk into a process area and say, hey, why are you doing it? I was told to. Yeah, that is not the value out of why you're doing that. There's probably some other value add. But now what if circumstance changes. That individual cannot adjust to the new circumstance because they don't know why they're doing it.
Speaker 1
[00.27.14]
Nope. So you're right. They're out. Throw their hands up. They're out. Yeah. They cannot you. You have said you cannot think for yourself. So therefore when one thing goes haywire, you you cannot compute. Right. You just you just stop. And that's not that. You need flexibility in in ops today. So. All right. So let me ask this question. You mentioned AI data is everywhere in fulfillment center world. Is data out the wazoo. There's things that measure everything. All kinds of stuff get measured and KPI and data. And there's some companies out there. When you bring up the computer screen, it just looks like the matrix, just ones, just tons of things. But I know you have a quote that I've seen and that is in the day of data. We can get a lot of data, but how do we make it actionable? And I feel like that actionable step is where the rubber meets the road. So how do you coach people from just sort of acquiring data and looking at it to actually using and turning into something and taking some action steps to create some value out of it?
Speaker 2
[00.28.17]
So you're right, we live in the information age, and data tends to overwhelm us. So much so that I find people are almost comfortable being overwhelmed by the data, but but also gridlock that they can't do anything with it, and that at that point, we're not getting the value out of the information. Now, if if you're overwhelmed by data, you can reach out to, that's a great opportunity for customers to reach back. We have professionals in the background that help you interpret your data for the sake. For this as an example, people get we've got all kinds of data where they run, how fast, how often they impact all these things. Well, how do you turn that into making the warehouse operation better? Unless you're in this world, you probably don't know that. Maybe you need some some outside eyes, some outside of support and assistant expertise, and that's fine. But as rule of thumb, carve through the data, find your scoreboard. You know, that's one of my favorite elements of coaching. You need a you need a scoreboard. Ben I'm a I'm a baseball fan. I grew up watching the Reds and I really enjoy to live. Yeah. Great. Good. Yeah. So, um, I use this example that I would never go to the Reds dugout and say, hey, team, how you doing? No scoreboard. Imagine no scoreboard on the field. Hey, team, how you doing? And they say fine.
Speaker 1
[00.29.34]
I would bet I would not be okay with that. What do you mean, fine? What's fine? What inning is it? Are we up? Are we down? Who's up? Yeah, you know what's I need? A few metrics that guide how we play the game and how we adjust to the game. I walk in workplaces all the time. Hey, how how's our work going today? Fine. Yeah. Scoreboard. How how do I know? I'm not talking about every statistic of every player I'm talking about? What are the key KPIs? If I'm if I'm in accounts receivable, how many calls do I need to make today to what customers and am I on top of that if I'm in production, you know we see production line of objective goals, but logistics how many trucks need to go out today? Are we on track? Are we off? Can we adjust through the day? Or do we get to the end of the day and go, oh, surprise, we didn't get finished. That's not a good thing. So making things small, manageable bites, having those key elements, not every not every score in every metric, but the key elements that guide our decision process so we can adjust actively and make best use of our resources. That's what we're looking for. And if you get overwhelmed by data and you just want to make improvements, pick what? Pick one thing. Make that to target for improvement. We talk about weak point management. You want to find the weak point. It doesn't matter if you don't find the weakest point. Pick. Pick a point where there's an opportunity. Fix that and then go to another and to another and another. But keep going that process. And then all of a sudden it becomes you feel like you've got your hands around it instead of it's overwhelming you. Yeah. It's like, um, I use a car analogy a lot. There's a time and a place to bring your car in for the full diagnostic and every little number you can. But when you're driving it, you just you. This is my speed. This is my RPM. This is my fuel in the tank. This is my ETA on my GPS. I've got 4 or 5 things that I, I watch. And the warehouse is kind of the same thing. Like, here are the 4 or 5 things that we need to know. Are we driving good or not? Should we bring the car in to the shop? Should we take it in for gas? Is there a problem? Is it engine overheating? No. All these things are good. Yeah, okay. When I'm done with my trip, car comes in. I run the diagnostic on the engine. Is it finely tuned and all those type things. So I think that's a very weird analogy, but hopefully you can give me some some cred and say, yes, I do think that that would sort of apply in, uh, in a distribution center at fire. Yeah, I've used that ask. Yeah. Which leads me to my next question. And that is, you know, there's a data driven where if you you're networked in with a lot of distribution, people like I am, you see data driven all the time on their resumes on LinkedIn. I'm data driven this data driven that, um, but there's kind of been a little bit of a grassroots, growing change of people saying, you know, you really should say that your data informed, right, as, as opposed to data driven, like you're using the data to inform the decisions that you make. Not necessarily just rogue trying to force the data to happen, you know. You know, what do you think about that subtle shift in the language? Because I've noticed that that's starting to happen a little bit with some people. Data informed, not data driven. When you think about that. So I love the subtle shift. And I'm all about the subtle shifts in language, Ben. You know, uh, when you talk about data informed also, that also gives the opportunity to think about, am I missing data being data informed? Yeah. Like that's that's that's the mindset we want to be in. Do I do I have the data that I need to be making the decisions that I need to make. And another parallel that I'll coach people on is people tell me I'm a problem solver. Fantastic. Yeah, I love that. However, if you're a problem seer, that would be even better,
Speaker 2
[00.33.16]
because once we get the problem all framed up like that,
Speaker 1
[00.33.20]
that's. Problem solving is like a puzzle. That's fun. We all love to solve problems. The trick is really seeing the opportunity. The same thing with the data. It's am I informed by the data or am I missing information I need? And now I can proactively I can go out and look for it. Now I'm going to engage in my workplace. Now I'm really making things happen. And it should always come back to improving that customer experience. So if we have data that's not affecting our customer experience now we might be talking that Japanese term of mood. Or are we sure that ads about you.
Speaker 2
[00.33.52]
Maybe it doesn't. Maybe we challenge that.
Speaker 1
[00.33.55]
Yeah, I've never heard that problem, seer, but I'm going to use that term. I like that a lot because you're you're heading it off at the past. And that method of solving a problem is the real I mean that that's the one that everyone wants, right. The problem before it. What's the getting off on a tangent here? But you know, the Bruce Lee movie where he's gonna fight the guy and instead of fighting him, he just puts him in a boat and he says, we're going to go fight on the island over there. Yeah. Ever seen that? We're gonna fight on that island over there. But then
Speaker 2
[00.34.26]
that's Enter the Dragon. Yeah, he puts the boat anyways,
Speaker 1
[00.34.29]
and he pushes like fighting without fighting. What's his style of fighting? And he wanted to see what's fighting without fighting. And he showed him that he pushed him over. That's like, uh, see, see, that's the high level. So you see the problem as long in advance. And that's how you you solve them before they come out that. That's great. I'm going to use that one. That one's an excellent I love that so. Well let me ask this question and and um, you know, we talk a lot today in the show about just lean and data and methodologies and all those things. But you brought this up in the very beginning of the show. So I think it's worthwhile to bring it back up. And that is how do you coach, train, teach operations to ensure that they embrace the people's side of the of of continuous improvement that they are looking at the people development as part of lean, that they are building a consensus with them, that they are generating things from the ground up. Because sometimes in lean industry and feel very top down, hey, we're telling our folks to do this and then they need to go do it. And you never get the sustainment phase when you do that in the long run. So what do you think about that? I mean, how how big how how important is this? And how do you coach operations to ensure that you're bringing the people into the fold and embracing the people who are going to then build the culture for you going forward?
Speaker 2
[00.35.49]
Well, you've you've hit one of the trickiest nails on the head, Ben. Uh, if if you don't engage people, you won't get a good continuous improvement workplace. But it's tricky to engage people. They have to see and understand the benefit it takes. It takes the investment of time and effort to develop people. But the what one of my, uh, executives I work with says a lot. He says the juice is worth the squeeze. And I think that's that's a great way to talk about how important is it to develop our people if if we involve our people? It gets back to what you and I talked about earlier, Ben, look at the creative solutions I've seen in the workplace. They're astounding. And I've been in I've been in this business for a long time. So there's things I'm like, wow, how did you think of that? You know, simple stuff. Um, but. But involving our people is is well worth the investment. It also drops things like other lagging indicators like turnover and cultural shifts. You know, we rely on a lot of what we call tribal knowledge, things we know that we don't have documented. And if we keep losing people, we're losing that tribal knowledge, which means the quality of our process to our customers going down. So it is worth the effort. But we also have to teach leaders that, and we have to empower them that. It's just like our people in the workplace. We have to empower leaders to be able to focus on a few people at a time. So for example, I mentioned I have I have three teams that that work for continuous improvement are two networks. Um, the Toyota networks, about 8500 people, the Raman networks, about 7000 people. And I have about 15 people. So quick math, that's about 1 to 1000. Mathematically, we're going to fail. So how do we do that? We were still making an impact. And we are. We do it by finding those people who become bright spots to teach and encourage others. So leaders need to do that same thing. They need to find those bright spots as part of lean and start a culture of learning, a culture of engagement from their people. That's going to look at their process because the magic of the Toyota way, a lot of people get that. It's adhering to a standard. But the magic of the Toyota way is the spirit of kaizen. Yes, we're going to adhere to the standard, but we're going to look at it every day for a little bit of an incremental improvement. I'm going to make this a little easier. How can I get the supplies to my my area more easily and not run out? How can I have a visual that I don't miss a customer order? How can I engage to make sure all my people are trained at the level they need to be? These are the kind of things we should be challenging in the workplace. Yeah.
Speaker 1
[00.38.28]
That effort. I always bring people along, I said. This is the number one overlooked tip to any ops manager. I just bring the people along when you make it. Like, best case scenario, they bring up something you hadn't thought of. They bring some insight and it's fantastic. And then it's really going to take hold. Worst case scenario. They were part of the solution. So if it goes sour, if it's terrible, they're not going to blame you for it. Right. They're not going to throw shade on you because they were a part of it. So either way I think you win. And then at the end of the day, they spread that. They spread what they learned and what they experienced. Other people becomes a force multiplier. Those buildings are very easy to manage because all the employees are engaged. They all feel a part of it. And sometimes you honestly don't even have to do that much anymore as a manager, because they're all taking care of it. You know, those type places are a dream. So all the ops managers out there listening, bring them along, just bring them along, include them. And half your problems will go away in the future. So I appreciate that. All right Keith. So where can people find out more about you now? You are on the podcast. You are on LinkedIn. I follow you there. I've seen a lot of your posts. I know you've been on other podcasts. I don't name. Won't name them on the show, but you can research you just Google you and find and find you. So where can people find out more about you and what you're doing? And what do you have kind of cooking up for 2026 and beyond? Oh,
Speaker 2
[00.39.54]
that's uh, yeah, that's a great, uh, finish. Uh, Ben, 2026 is going to be a big year for our teams. Um, handling North America is has got a concerted effort to bring our distribution networks closer together to align best practices. So it's very exciting for me for continuous improvement, uh, aspect. Um, you can find me on, uh, Raymond Corp comm and com, and I'm out there on the Toyota and Raymond networks, so, uh, that follow me on LinkedIn. I am Google searchable, but, uh, uh, I'd love to get out with the people. And, uh, I love this work. Continuous improvement is picking up momentum because we live in a world of change right now. And this this to me, you know, you see that tsunami wave of change coming at you think of continuous improvement methods as your surfboard. You just get up on that surfboard and you ride that wave and let it take you where it's going to take you, and you'll be happy moving forward. So, uh, yeah, I think 26 is can be a great year for all of
Speaker 1
[00.40.55]
us. Cool. Awesome I agree, I agree, I love that analogy too. And you're right. And this industry is so dynamic, always changing. The people are always changing the order mix of changing customers, changing everything. So you need to have methodologies in place to kind of handle that, change a strategy and continuous improvement. Lean is definitely one of those that can that can do that so well. Keith, I appreciate you coming on the show. And that was a great chat. Yeah, that was a great chat. I learned a lot from you. I wish I got a close up look at that samurai sword behind your head. But maybe that's maybe maybe just send me some of your photos. I'll send you a picture. A couple of mines that I have and, uh. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2
[00.41.36]
Oh. Fantastic, man. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. If you saw me on LinkedIn, you saw last year in Japan, my wife and I were in Kyoto, and I was I was doing the I was doing the sword work. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, I did, I saw that that that was a cool. That was a cool. That was the photo I saw when I was a research and research all my guests. And then I'm like, oh, that's the sword. That's right. That's sort of right there on the thing from from the photo. So yes, it works cool.
Speaker 1
[00.42.01]
Good. Well, I appreciate it, Keith. Uh, great chat. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Come back anytime. Uh, I loved having you as a guest, as a guest. And and best of luck to you and and future endeavors, sir.
Speaker 2
[00.42.12]
Thank you. Ben, I sure appreciate being on.
Speaker 1
[00.42.15]
Now. You got it. Take care of my friend. All right, guys, that concludes this episode. Thanks again to Keith Ingalls for coming on the show. If you are interested in learning more about lean methodologies, continuous improvement, the TPS, all those things, I would reach out to him. He is putting out good knowledge on LinkedIn right now. He's a he's available, a very good resource for you to reach out to. And everyone knows the value that Toyota material handling can bring as well. So please reach out to them today as the warehouse underground goes. Like I say, please sign up for the community. We have almost 270 people that have signed up to the community. We have a a live event that we're doing in there on February 12th at 7:30 p.m.. So me, Carlos Cody and Devin Galloway, who are two former guests of the podcast, are going to be leading an open forum session for anybody working in fulfillment center. So if you want to learn how to turbo boost your career with some insights and secrets about life and FCS or the industry at large, sign up for that event. It'll be pretty cool. About an hour and a half of, uh, of good access. Also, check out the Tiger Team show if you have not heard of the Tiger Team show and you want some light hearted wit, humor, sarcasm. But as it relates to life inside warehouses and distribution centers and fulfillment centers, check out that show with my co-host Jordan, and we are working on recruiting a famous, I want to say famous with inside the industry, but a famous guest for one of our upcoming episodes. You won't want to miss that. If we can get this person to appear on the Tiger team, it will be awesome. So as this podcast goes, thank you again to Keith for coming on. I will see you guys next time for episode number 35. God bless.
